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Talk:Education
Under the Elementary section, remove the theories as fact line; should include line about must include basic math, language and social skills training. Request to add section As one of the most contentious aspects of education in the U.S. I would recommend that a section cover the debate between English Only vs Multiple Language instruction. I'm not qualified to write it up, but it's my opinion that it should definitely be there. Another aspect that might be considered is math/reading/writing and the best and/or appropriate methodologies to accomplish progressively higher levels of proficiency. --JamieWalker 21:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC) Will add when we redesign the educational space. Bmackenty 17:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Questioning Goals of Public Education "2. All teachers should be highly qualified." :Is having highly qualified teachers a goal of public education, or a means to a goal? I think some might argue that it's sometimes possible to educate students in all the ways we want without relying on the teachers being the best choices.--CyclicFatalist 03:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC) ::I think it has to be both, and it doesn't make sense to me to choose one without the other. The goal should be to provide the best education possible to our children to help them reach their potential. That requires teachers that can teach our kids the knowledge and critical thinking skills that they will need to succeed. Chadlupkes 19:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC) :::Qualification is a means to an end. However, it must also be attained before many of the other goals can happen. So basically, it is an intermediate goal. Jfing[[Wikipedia:User:Jfingers88/Esperanza|'e']]rs88 19:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Year Round Schooling This section of Education is very opinionated and one-sided. While I personally agree with year round schooling, I think there should be references and at least one a counter point on why summer breaks are good. -- damunzy 05:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC) I've added a counterpoint, but haven't had time to search for references. In general, I think the year round schooling is likely very good for people who have interests or aptitudes that can benefit from what the schools provide. In an ideal world, perhaps schools would be broad in scope that this would be everyone, but since they are not, it is important to leave some large sets of time available for those not well served to seek their own opportunities. Kbal11 05:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC) redesign idea Ok. This page is getting huge. I'd like to redo it again, this time organizing it as "issues in education" with each issue having it's own wiki page. What do you think? Bmackenty 17:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Sounds like a good idea to me. Something else that I'd like to do on this and other pages, but have not yet found the time for, is to link to any current campaigns that have candidates arguing over these issues. If you know of any, please jump in. :) - Kbal11 05:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC) Split the education page into issues in education. We need more private education issues. Probably ties into vouchers and such? Bmackenty 12:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC) I drew up an outline of the education section when I first saw Jimmy's note, but then I spent two weeks on the road for work. So, let me post it here instead of attacking the whole existing structure. Let me know what you think and maybe it will help with the redesign. It is kind of long, but I hope it is helpful. --Jafree 00:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC) *History of US Public Education **Precedent? **In America ***Jefferson and other Revolution-era ***US and state Constitutions ***Horace Mann ***Desegregation ***A Nation at Risk (1983) *Do we have the right to public education *Taxes and School Spending **Common Funding Structures ***Funding overview (In side box?) ****Breakdown: Federal/State/Local ****Avg per student by state ****Avg distribution of spending – salaries, capital, etc. ***Federal Spending ****ESEA overview ****NCLB ****Title I ****Federal support of higher education (student loans, etc.) ****Title IX as example of regulation? ***State and local spending ****Tax structures *****Property tax – favors wealthy districts unless Robin Hood law in effect as in Texas; Calif limits on prop tax increases limits school spending *****Sales tax – commonly used for education as well *****Lotteries ****Local Education Agencies ***Per student, Avg Daily Attendance, etc. **Other Expenses: Lunches and Buses **Bonds for Capital **Vouchers and school choice ***Overview of vouchers ***Typical voucher funding systems (partial, full, etc.) ***Religious or not? ***Court precedent (Cleveland) **65% rule? **Supplemental Education Services *School Management **Districts ***Overview of school district – how many are there, avg size, etc. ***School boards – elected or appointed ***Superintendent – hiring policy? ***Mayoral control as current trend in urban centers **Principals ***Hiring/Firing of principals ***Principal control of school, eg Seattle ***Principal shortages – New Leaders for New Schools, etc. **Charters – Could probably get its own section! ***History of Charters ***State-dependent policies ***Evidence of success ***Cause for concern **Pilots – Like charters, but within district control. E.g., Boston. *Teachers **Unions **Teacher preparation ***Schools of Ed ***Teach for America and related programs *Politics of Teaching and Learning **Standardized testing **Curriculum ***Reading – Phonics v. Whole ***Math – Constructive vs. ? ***Science – Evolution, Inquiry, etc. Wow. Jafree - impressive list, Thank you. So here's the thing. I think we should include all your ideas, but where? I'm still struggling to "get" the place this wiki holds - It's not like wikipedia, where the articles are informative - I think we should be aiming at creating a place for discourse. That's why I switched the education page over to issues, to spurn conversation and debate. *shrugs* I see many (almost all) of your points as exceptional issues facing education today. What do you think? Warmly, Bmackenty 12:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC) I see your point that this should be a place for discourse. Perhaps we could tweak my outline to create areas for debate and discussion. I do think that there should be some level of well-cited information which lays the foundation in each topic. My first section on history was intended to be short and could primarily be links over to Wikipedia. Then each sub-topic could be a place for debate, e.g., how to finance public schools? I think this would deter people from just simply listing a whole bunch of complaints about schools without connecting them to a point. I would guess that we would need a different page for each sub-topic. I'll go ahead and start building something along these lines (probably after work). If it doesn't work, we can always revert! --Jafree 14:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Excellent idea! I can't wait to see your changes. Thank you! Bmackenty 15:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC) New outline I went ahead and added the new outline into the main article. I have not added any links, nor have I incorporated any of the information that was already there. Most of the topics can be moved up into my old outline and links to issue pages can be established, I just haven't done it yet. I do not have sections about race or poverty, but they are very relevant. I'll try to add soon, unless someone beats me to it. For those who just want to rant about their experience or opinion on education, this site may now be too organized. But for debate on specific topics, I think we can create some good spaces. --Jafree 15:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC) I am using the "Distribution of Funds" section as the experimental one. The idea is that this page just provides an overview of what you will find there. Once you click through, there is a page with several summaries and discussion sections on sub-topics. --Jafree 19:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC) Purpose of this site? So, I spent half of my day yesterday editing this site, and then on the way home was wondering what the point was. Then I find out about Issuepedia this morning. Now I am wondering two things: first, should this site be on Issuepedia instead - is Campaigns wiki intended for candidates and not issues? Second, what do we hope to achieve with this site? Informed debate is important, but if it is just among a few people who visit the site, then that doesn't do much. I guess the site needs to be something unique - like a central point for all major issue debate. It could be a way of connecting experts, policy makers, and citizens. On the other hand, I may be way off. I am going to add a section above the discussion sections where people can post questions. Responses would hopefully be germane and supported by evidence. If anyone else has thoughts about how to make this useful, please let me know. --Jafree 14:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC) Jafree, I really like the changes. I too, share your question: what is the purpose of this site, and what do we hope to achieve? I think your reorganization is a good one, and this page should serve as an organizing area for all the different issues we should be debating. I note the no child left behind section is getting some activity. Thanks, and I'm probably going to move / edit / change the perspectives section into the issues sections later today. Bmackenty 15:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC) I've asked jimbo to stop by and offer his ideas. Maybe that will help us. *shrugs* This page looks great. Love the new format. I think that if framed right this could be a great forum for evolving a more open and effective debate about how to achieve a shared goal, the education of the US population. As such, the first step in this debate should be devoted to fully defining the goals. My impression is that arguments about this should belong here in the discussion page, then the current consensus of the fully defined goals of education become the introduction of the main page. Is this right? If so, I'd love to start a chat with some people on this The second step is to get as much involvement as possible from all perspectives. Are there pages or discussion groups devoted to scheeming about how to achieve this? I think there should be and I'd like to join that discussion as well. Lets keep this rolling --CyclicFatalist 17:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC) Citing statistics If you add facts to the page, please make sure you cite your source. Otherwise, it is likely to get overwritten with other information. --Jafree 21:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC) Education is a popular category I'm seeing a lot of articles under this category, and that's fantastic. Let's try and avoid orphans by linking everything in. Chadlupkes 19:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Suggestions for redesign I had an idea to come to this page and split off the Public School vs Private School debate, but it's one of the smallest sections even though in the United States it's a fundamental debate right now. The decision on how much funding to provide to our school districts comes after the decision on whether the government is going to provide that funding in the first place. Considering that the Republican Party's positions on Education http://www.ontheissues.org/Republican_Party.htm#Education, I think we need this debate. Should Education in the United States be funded publically or privately? Follow the link, and let's talk about it. Chadlupkes 20:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC) Oi, there's more here than I thought. And it really doesn't make any sense in the multi-article structure that it currently has. We need more people involved... Chadlupkes 03:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC) :Ok, help me get some interest from some people. Send an email to the PTA, and make a suggestion on what other groups we can contact. Chadlupkes 04:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC) ::Department of Education website could be of some help both in contacting people high up and as an information resource. Jfing[[Wikipedia:User:Jfingers88/Esperanza|'e']]rs88 04:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC) Hi. I'm back. :-) Why is the Main Article: Education in the United States linked underneath education? This feels fragmented to me. This wiki article is the main article for education in the united states. I think the idea was to list / categorize the issues here, and then talk about each one of these issues. I think it would be really cool to then link the issues to different candidates. :-) Wadda you think? Bmackenty 19:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC) :Education issues within the US should be in a US focused page. I like your idea, and I'm looking forward to seeing the series grow, we just need to remember that we're a global website, just like Wikipedia. Chadlupkes 20:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC) ::But all the issues on this page are US educational issues....so it's a bit confusing. The history, funding, etc, are all us-centric. So it seems a bit perplexing why we would then have another US educational page with the same discussion on it. I think we should remove the US page, and continue to use this page as a place to list and explore issues related to Education. The nice thing about this organization, is international educational systems, which might have the same issues, can simply link into our issues :-) Bmackenty 19:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC) :::Issues might be different in different countries, and I'm certainly interested in seeing those differences. Specific suggestions about how to change our Education system in the United States should probably go onto the US page, but general ideas that can be considered addressing global education issues should be welcome as well. :::The main reason why the page hasn't been split up is that nobody has been working on the pages. There is an Education Wikia as well. Maybe the issue should be addressed in the context of what our local School Board members and candidates for those offices want to do with their local schools. Chadlupkes 19:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC) International This general page is too focused on the US. Education is a global issue, just like any other major civil issue. Can we get our friends from the UK, Australia and Chile to help expand it? Chadlupkes 20:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)